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I'm here to argue for snowballs for both Bowmasters and Marksmen

Discussion in 'Q & A' started by selffor, Nov 2, 2020.

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  1. Pepperspray

    Pepperspray Keen Heart

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    The cost of gear (for any class) will never compensate for class strength due to the fact that half of your endgame stuff is untradable and CS/WS/Corruption costs the same for everyone.

    Most MM players actually end up switching to BM, so if MM was stronger (than they are now) it really wouldn't affect how much you're paying for sentinel gear.
     
    #21 Pepperspray, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  2. lyttontea

    lyttontea Crimsonwood Keep Boss Rush Master

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    I already stated that there is precedence for removing snowballs. But overly applying technicalities and protocols is not conducive for great decision making. If you choose to perceive this change as another bug that needs to be removed, you lose the flexibility to potentially make better judgments. I will link you a reddit thread, comprising hundreds of comments of which redditors offered evidence that bugs have made some games better--in some cases, those bugs became legitimate features in newer iterations of the games. Some bugs became iconic features that you would never think of removing, such as combo striking and animation cancellation in the Street Fighter franchise.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/1k4t7t/examples_of_games_that_had_bugs_that_became_so/

    I assure you GM Alex was aware of this bug long before these posts because snowballs have been publicly discussed on the forums before. Standardization of snowballs is very much a valid point because it is an integral part of a BM's kit. Its removal will feel like a nerf to anyone who is affected by this change, and I do not believe that is debatable.

    Using your logic, if removing a bug reduces the dynamics of a game, doesn't that make the game less dynamic? The intended form of v62 MS is deeply flawed and imbalanced. A bug that does not harm the game state, but provides damage balance, class viability, and player satisfaction should not be relegated to being just another bug; rather, it shows the progressive direction we should be heading towards.

    If you could provide a link to the MM thread, I would read it since I am unaware of the thread you're referring to. However, I believe the game state will continue to evolve and adapt to the current needs of its player base. In the face of a crippled economy in a raid-centric iteration of v62 MS, I think current players will rejoice in a rejuvenated economy. That might not have been the case during the time of that MM thread, but I share in the current, popular sentiment that the economy needs a jolt. Class viability will not be the greatest contributing factor to reviving the economy, but it's a step in the right direction.

    I've stated my thoughts on class disparity in a previous comment, so I will just summarize that class viability is healthy for the game and that classes must feel rewarding to play.
     
    #22 lyttontea, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
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  3. weallgobananas

    weallgobananas Training Mapler

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    Thanks for sharing the reddit link. I've looked through the thread, and it is apparent that most of the bugs being mentioned there affected/benefitted the majority of the player base. With respect to snowballs, it only affects one specific class. So we can't say for certain that reintroducing snowballs for BMs and MMs will benefit the entire player base, it is most definitely still considered preferential treatment.

    The MM thread I mentioned is linked below:

    https://forums.maplesaga.com/index.php?threads/proposed-marksman-quality-of-life-improvements.8447/

    Do take a look, and I think you might realise that this entire discussion is taking on a very similar tone to the MM thread. At this point I will stop bring up arguments against buffing BMs, because it is not my intention to do so. I am merely highlighting the arguments made in the MM thread. I acknowledge the MM thread was started back in 2018 and it might not be as relevant now. It will be interesting to see if promoting class viability is the direction that the server is suddenly going to take up now because of this snowball issue, because it most certainly hasn't been the case previously. I'm confident that many people will be watching the developments on this issue with interest, because if this proposal goes through, there will be many more championing to increase the viability of the truly under-represented classes. I believe a statement regarding the future direction of the game is needed at this point to provide more clarity and understanding.

    To respond to Pepperspray's opinion that cost of gear will never compensate for class strength, the reason below is directly quoted from Alex as justification not to buff MMs (from the MM thread I linked above)

    " Cons:
    • Existing Bowmasters would be tilted, having spent more funds on their gear and books than the average Marksman. Decisions need to be data-driven, and there exists 5 times more Bowmasters on this server than Marksmen."
    By this logic, wouldn't NLs be tilted that they had to spend so much more and now BMs are basically given the opportunity to be closer to them in dps for free? A perfect FOM is considerably more expensive than a perfect bow. As far as I know, many people do choose to play BMs because they want to play a DPS class without having to spend as much as a NL, but do correct me if I'm wrong.
     
    #23 weallgobananas, Nov 5, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  4. Pepperspray

    Pepperspray Keen Heart

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    Yes, people play BM because they are cheaper than NLs (BMs are the cheapest class out of the meta trio of NL/Hero/BM), but people do not play MMs because they are cheaper than BMs.

    BMs don't need buffs (they'd be still a good class even if they were weaker than they are now), but there are some classes that seriously do need some.

    I think it's less fair to have someone that's spent hundreds of hours on their MM perfecting gear, only to get whited by a new BM with awful gear. BMs should be stronger than MMs, but I think everyone should have a shot at being reasonably strong with good gear. Otherwise, there's no motivation to play such classes and those classes basically become dead content.

    Plus, Alex can make raids more challenging without leaving out weak classes to dry or needing awkward game mechanics (div requirement).
     
    #24 Pepperspray, Nov 5, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
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  5. Tawn

    Tawn Ninja Castle Expert

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    Mm and Paladin supposed to be the dead class anyway in v62. Even with the current patch (real ms) I don’t think they ever outshine others.
     
  6. lyttontea

    lyttontea Crimsonwood Keep Boss Rush Master

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    The magnitude of the bug's impact doesn't necessarily matter--it's the idea that bugs can be good for the game. Buffing any class in isolation is technically considered preferential treatment. Since Paladins were the only class to receive buffs in the recent update, isn't that considered preferential treatment? I don't see a problem with that.

    Many things can change over the course of two years, especially with the surge of players due to covid-19. A Maplestory private server won't age well as there are severe limitations to the available content. Nonetheless, it's still a MMO and it suffers from the same issues that plague most other MMOs. MMOs survive on its ability to adapt to the player's needs and concerns. I do not believe developers of successful games will tell you to suck it up if your class consistently underachieves. In the case of MapleSaga, the underachieving classes have been, and will continue to be, the heavy bottom tier classes for the server's entire lifetime if no changes are made.

    Having read that thread reinforces my opinion that class balancing is needed. It signals to me that people have been discontent with the state of low tier DPS classes for years. There will always be strong classes and weak classes in most MMOs, but that dynamic changes with ongoing patches. Unfortunately, that dynamic will never change in MapleSaga, which is perfectly fine. The clear defined end to this game is your range and damage output. For some classes, that dead end comes much quicker when they see no merit in boosting their range. People are advocating to close the gap so that all classes feel rewarding to play, and demonstrate a healthy competitive level of potential and promise.
     
    #26 lyttontea, Nov 5, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
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  7. CrunchyEgg

    CrunchyEgg Joy To The World

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    Just my 2 cents for this snowball vs bm vs mm shenanigans

    1) remove snowballs. check
    2) BUFF red/blue arrows from Miu Miu from +4wa to +10wa. Reason? QoL has now been returned. Both classes now have been buffed
    3) Change snipe cooldown from 5 secs to 2.5 seconds. Reason: MM clearly needs a buff. If damage cap can't be removed, cooldown should be tweaked. OR at least give a chance for each snipe to "remove" cooldown for the next snipe
     
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  8. Pepperspray

    Pepperspray Keen Heart

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    The thing with buffing Snipe is that the damage doesn't change with your gear. This is problematic because you make them OP early in progression but doesn't help much later.

    Due to Snipe's static damage, MMs are actually stronger than BMs early in the game. However, due to range inflation on Saga this point comes relatively early compared to original Maplestory.

    Right now,
    • MMs are stronger than BMs at roughly <5k range (without SI)
    • MMs are stronger than BMs at roughly <7.5k range (with SI)

    I think increasing Strafe's base damage from 100% to 120% would be a good buff. The additional damage doesn't count toward crit damage, so one line of Strafe will do 232% (old average) + 20% = 252%, roughly a 11% increase in Strafe damage.

    This will mean:
    • MMs are stronger than BMs at roughly <6k range (without SI)
    • MMs are stronger than BMs at roughly <10k range (with SI)
    Keep in mind all of these are buffed ranges. Clean ranges would be 1-1.5k less. The comparison is to a BM with equal gear.

    I've done this just to prove a point (all ranges here are rounded to the nearest half-decimal), and I'm a bit sleepy right now so I might have made a mistake. I can provide more defensible numbers if you are interested.

    I agree that if the +10wa arrows are to return, they should be added to existing arrows rather than to snowballs.
     
    #28 Pepperspray, Nov 5, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
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  9. CrunchyEgg

    CrunchyEgg Joy To The World

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    With range aside and inputting pure damage overtime, lets say a minute (lets use smokescreen for this example). I'm not too good on this calculation so I'll just input the scenarios, maybe you can fill in the cracks

    1) BMs will shoot about 500 arrows per minute with Hurricane = [input damage output]
    [Current] MMs will use 4 Strafe (no SI) or 3 Strafe (w/ SI) followed by a Snipe every 5 seconds. = [input damage output]

    2) BMs will shoot about 500 arrows per minute with Hurricane = [input damage output]
    [Snipe cd changed to 2.5s] MMs will shoot 2-3 Strafe (no SI) or 2 Strafe followed by a Snipe every 2.5s = [input damage output]

    3) BMs will shoot about 500 arrows per minute with Hurricane = [input damage output]
    [Strafe damage changed 120%] MMs will use 4 Strafe (no SI) or 3 Strafe (w/ SI) followed by a Snipe every 5 seconds. = [input damage output]

    4) BMs will shoot about 500 arrows per minute with Hurricane = [input damage output]
    [Snipe cd changed to 2.5s and Strafe damage changed to 120%] MMs will shoot 2-3 Strafe (no SI) or 2 Strafe followed by a Snipe every 2.5s = [input damage output]

    My reason for this is MMs require much more attention and different gameplay than BMs, but yet they are much more weaker than BMs. I don't understand why these classes are both long range archers, but the damage output difference is so large. Some people shouldn't have to pick up a bow vs a crossbow simply cause it's stronger, but apparently that is the case
     
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  10. dan weitzman

    dan weitzman Master Adventurer

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    As someone who mains a marksman for close to 2 years and seen alot of players ditch their MM's i can't say i blame them. It could be frustrating to be making progress perfecting gear but not being able to put it on display to say the least. I don't think it makes sense for a marksman to be outdps'ed by a bowmaster, 4k range lower (spoken from experience, even if it's without SI, it doen't play out that much better with SI included). With all honesty a BM with my range could pretty much ace every raid and chart. I had never assumed MM is going to DPS as good as BM but i think it's not even close to being reasonably strong as pkev mentioned.

    I have absolutely no idea how to even calculate and do the math behind it all and that always prevented me from suggesting new ways to improve. There's definitely something to be done and im sure it's worth looking into buffing strafe or a different approach. So far snipe seems a bit marginal going onwards, since i've been doing my own testing and the only reason for me to keep at sniping is the fact my strafes don't always crit 4 times and even then it's not that much of a difference with and without snipe in my opinion.

    I would also like to say that adding a buff to existing arrows sounds like a good plan and should be made for both MM and BM if it ever happens.

    Another suggestion for MM is the usage of piercing arrow (not my idea initially but i absolutely support it). There might be some others who would like to comment on that but for now making it so that you could cast it while jumping and lowering the charge time seems like a good way to make this skill much more efficient. So far it's been somewhat effective in Toad, TB and HT, and it's only sometimes effective because it's really messy to use. Didn't yet get to post a thread about the matter but for now it's worth mentioning that it could be of value to make the class more interesting and effective in raids regardless of DPS.
     
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  11. AndyZ

    AndyZ Legendary Mapler

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    Hey all, as someone whos done a lot of analysis of BM vs MM, I'd like to throw my 2 cents in.

    I believe the *ideal* solution here isn't buffing MM's damage, but rather to find a role for MM that isn't (essentially) the same as a BM. Currently the two classes overlap almost entirely in their raid roles, and the means that if you only adjust the damage numbers of strafe/snipe/hurricane, one class will always be better than the other. At that point, why even have 2 distinct classes?

    The way to fix this is to create another role for either BMs or MMs to move into (something like a different party buff, ability to remove CWA, etc...). The tough part of this is balancing an entirely new raid role as well as the backend coding for @alex@alex . I know that v62 is janky coding-wise and I'm not sure how much can be done w/ out significant professional work.

    Edit: also now that I'm re-reading everything, I don't really see how this has to do w/ snowballs.
     
  12. CrunchyEgg

    CrunchyEgg Joy To The World

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    i think it's more of the weapon attack on snowballs now
     

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